Penny Miles: Right. So welcome to this podcast, where we'll be exploring race and the year abroad. My name is Penny Miles, and I'm a lecturer in Latin American politics at the University of Bath.

Keji Kamoju: I'm Keji Kamoju. I used to study at University of Bath. I did Spanish and politics, and I graduated about four years ago.

Penny: Okay, brilliant. Thank you very much. And welcome, Keji, to this podcast. So I just wanted to start; could you tell us or tell the audience what this podcast is about, please?

Keji: So, this podcast is about a research project that we have been working on, titled 'Contesting Whiteness in the Year Abroad'. And, we'll just be talking a bit about some of the topics that came up as a result of the findings.

Penny: Okay. Great. Thank you. So, Keji, could you tell me why this project came about?

Keji: So, the project came about after I had gone on my year abroad. As I said, I studied Spanish and politics. On my third year, I went to Chile in South America, and I had some conversations with friends who had also studied abroad, and I just noticed that there were some things that were coming up that were different from the experiences that my white course mates had had.

So, I think when I came back from my year abroad, I was talking to you as my personal tutor, just about some of the experiences that I'd had and things that had come up with some friends. And I think we had a few conversations, and we began to think about whether there was an opportunity to explore the topic further and potentially conduct a research project looking into the experiences of students of colour on their year abroad and placements.

So, this then kind of branched out into looking at the students' experience before, during - well before and during the year abroad. So, a key part of this was looking at the role that the University played in preparing and supporting students on the lead up to and also during the year abroad in relation to factors relating to race.

Penny: That's brilliant. Thank you. Are you able to just give an example of some of those differences of experience that you noticed between the white students and yourself?

Keji: Yeah. So I think one of the key things was, when it came to picking where to go on the year abroad, race was a factor for my friends that were people of colour, whereas I noticed that my white course mates and friends didn't really have to take that into consideration when they were picking. So, yeah, I'd say that was one of the first things that I noticed.

Penny: Yeah, that certainly came up across in the data in terms of everyone was very careful about where they went and often kind of choosing cities over kind of more rural locations. Brilliant. So Keji, what advice would you give to future students, future travelling students about preparing for their year abroad and then thinking about an overseas placement?

Keji: Yeah, that's a really interesting question and really important. So, I'd say my main advice would be to research. There are many different ways that you can research before going on your year abroad, and when you're in that preparation stage.

I'd say that YouTube is a really great resource because you can find videos of people who live in the country currently, or people that have travelled where they talk about their experiences. And, the benefit of that is that you kind of get an unfiltered perspective of how people experience the countries that they were in or that they're living in. And, yeah, you can kind of take from it what you'd like.

I'd say that it's worth taking everything with a pinch of salt, because just because somebody has experienced something, as, I don't know, a black person living in Spain, for example, that doesn't mean that you will have that exact same experience when you go there.

So, I'd say, you know, take what you see and just use it as a method to kind of prepare yourself for things that could potentially come up, but there's no guarantee that they will come up. And, with that, you can kind of put in place maybe an action plan so you can say, 'Okay, if this negative thing happens to me, who will I reach out to for support?'

Perhaps having somebody in your personal life that can help you, but also somebody at the University that will be there to give you support.

Another piece of advice for preparing yourself? I'd say to take a bit of home with you to wherever you're travelling. So, for me, food was a big thing. I didn't realise that I would miss some of my cultural foods that I didn't take along and that I didn't have access to for the ten months that I was abroad. So, yeah, just take with you what you can, if you know that you won't be able to get it abroad.

A bit more on social media. So I'd say using Facebook groups are really useful. There are lots of travel groups out there where you can post in and, you know, ask people what their experiences have been in a certain country or city. And, again, you get a wide variety of people sharing their experiences. And, I think that just emphasises that, you know, that there isn't just one experience for people.

Your experience will be completely unique to somebody else who perhaps it looks exactly the same as you and is from the same background. So, again, it's just using the advice to prepare you but not taking it as a given as of what you will actually experience.

Penny: Yeah. No, that's really important. I think we saw a real range of experiences in the, you know, the respondents who kind of discussed what their experience is like while they were abroad. So, what for you were the kind of what can people expect in terms of the good and the bad whilst away? Perhaps if you can kind of delve into that a little bit for us, please.

Keji: Yes. Um, I will start with the good. So I think the thing that came up a lot from the respondents was that there was a greater interest, perhaps in their cultural backgrounds from the locals. So, I think that's a benefit in a lot of ways, because, people are more willing to come up to you and talk to you or, perhaps when they see that you speak the local language, they're more interested about your journey in learning the language while you're interested.

But, another thing that came up, actually, was that there was interest in the kind of intersection of being British and having another cultural background. So, again, it's the increased interest. Yeah, that that was really beneficial for some people and found that they kind of integrated in a different way to perhaps, you know, their white British, course mates.

Penny: Yeah, I think that was quite important. Also in terms of language acquisition, I think some of the participants actually felt that that was a real benefit because, you know, some of those in Spain were presumed to be from a Latino background sometimes. And so, you know, they were spoken to immediately in Spanish. And so, sometimes language acquisition is seen as being a bit more problematic in this kind of in this instance. But, actually, this research has shown the country… okay.

Keji: Yeah, exactly. And, a bit more on that, I guess. You know, the assumption might be that people could be, you know, if you're assuming that you're going to have a negative experience, for example, you'd assume that people perhaps won't approach you and won't talk to you. But, yeah, as you say, a lot of the respondents did have the opposite experience.

And, yeah, that's quite a benefit knowing that you can kind of blend in in certain places or, you know, when people first come up to you, they won't assume that English is your first language, so they will just speak to you in the local language, which is, yeah, great for practice.

Penny: Yeah, definitely. Okay, perhaps moving on to the more complex issues, which is kind of part of the reason that we did this. Yeah, so I know it's not easy to talk about, but if you're able to maybe just give a little bit of insight?

Keji: Yeah. So, unfortunately, there were quite a few examples of negative experiences that the students had. So, one that stands out is the experience of fetishisation from especially the black female respondents. That was something that they experienced in, in a variety of contexts, but mainly in the more social going out, in the evenings.

For example, also, I think all respondents had examples of just receiving culturally insensitive comments that were clearly based on their, their racial background. So, things that perhaps in the UK context, we accept as not being acceptable, they've kind of had to deal with and tackle from people on their year abroad. And, navigating that in a second language as well was something that was, yeah, a particular challenge for some of them.

Penny: I suppose that's where the kind of isolation element and the importance of trying to tap into kind of diasporas and using spaces like Facebook, as you said, to try and kind of do that. I know one of the students looked up 'Indians in Barcelona' as a kind of a way in. And, how kind of building up networks through those spaces might be kind of a way of trying to find some support in the kind of local context.

Keji: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think that at that point around, finding community whilst on the year abroad was something that was common throughout the respondents in being a key thing that actually helped them to deal with some of the difficult experiences that they had.

So I guess this kind of links back to the question of, you know, preparing yourself, before going abroad. Sometimes it is useful to try and connect with people or find out where the spaces are in the city or the town that you're going to, where diverse groups of people meet, and where you might be able to meet people from a similar cultural background to yourself.

Because, then you just know that you've got that safe space of people that you can go to and talk to about some of the things that you're facing, or perhaps they could even give you advice beforehand to kind of reduce the likelihood of you going through some of the negative experiences.

Penny: Oh, that's brilliant. That's really helpful. Thank you. Kind of thinking about the placement in Bath. It's quite key to many degrees that we have in at the University.

I was just trying to think about how the findings from the project might also relate to our black British students or British Asian students who might end up in kind of quite more rural settings, perhaps in some parts of Wales that are, you know, very white and, you know, there's very little racial diversity.

Similarly, some of our students from overseas, from Asia and Africa, who might be also doing their placement in a wholly white institution in the UK. How might their findings kind of apply across those kinds of cohorts as well?

Keji: Yeah, no, I would say that the findings definitely can be applied to a large extent as the experiences that these students in the UK who are going to, you know, these areas that are very white areas, for example; I think a lot of their experiences are mirrored with the experiences that the students that were part of this project experience.

So things like, you know, being treated differently in the workplace or, you know – there was an example with one of the respondents who was working in a school and had to deal with quite difficult comments from some of the students in the class that were, yeah, very racist comments that unfortunately they had picked up from home and their parents.

And this is something that happens in the UK, too, and that a lot of students could, could fall victim to. I think there are a lot of similarities between the experiences. So, the findings from this study would benefit and can be used to improve the experiences of students in the UK as well.

Penny: Okay. So again, kind of tapping into kind of spaces within the local setting, you know, where they might be able to find support. I think, in one case, someone found support through kind of a local shopkeeper who kind of then gave them access to the wider community and, so, kind of trying to tap in, and then that food, as well; bring your food with you.

Keji: Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Penny: Thinking about those experiences that you've just mentioned. What do you think the University can do, or what does the University do now to help that it kind of probably didn't do in the past when you were going through your experience.

Keji: Yeah. I'm quite glad that now that there has been some progression since I left University, and improvements have been made to the Support and Report tool. So, this is where students can report any instances of bullying, harassment, discrimination and more. But, now, there's greater expertise and knowledge on how to support black and Asian students if they're there facing any racialised forms of harassment or discrimination. But, specifically, also if they are experiencing this during their year abroad.

So, this is something that Britt Sawyerr, from the University of Bath, has been working on. And, she has worked really hard to ensure that the staff and the team are equipped with the relevant training, um, to deal with such scenarios. So, I think the impact of this is that the tool is more visible for students, and students know that it's there, and it's explicit that it can be used for racialised harassment or discrimination.

I think the impact of this is that there is a bit more confidence for students to use it, which wasn't the case before. But, yeah, it's probably something that, over time, more students will feel more confident to use. And, that's the aim essentially.

Penny: Yeah, no, I think it's really important. And, Britt has definitely been quite key in helping to kind of develop the support for students in quite a kind of practical way. So, trying to find practical solutions to either move students out of potentially harmful situations and/or try and mobilise the relevant sectors within the University that can support.

So, if our department needs to support a student whilst on placement, then they're able to kind of liaise our HR department to their HR department and so being able to use the kind of language that HR departments use, for example.

Okay. Are there any other resources that students can kind of access before they go away other than this podcast?

Keji: Yes. So, yes, this podcast hopefully will be a useful, resource for students. There is also a blog on the website that talks a bit more about the study and a bit more detail and some of the findings, as well as some of the steps that are being taken to address some of the issues that came up as a result of the research.

Also, there are sessions being held for students on the lead up to going on their placement and year abroad, where they have the opportunity to ask any questions specifically on this topic, which is something that wasn't in place previously. And, you know, over the next year and beyond, we're hoping to create more useful resources that students can use, and put on more sessions. And, yeah, just provide that safe space for students to talk about this, express any concerns, also to just share excitement as well.

It's really important for me that, talking about race in relation to the year abroad, the year abroad doesn't just have a negative tone to it. It was really positive that, you know, one of the final questions on the research was around whether the respondents would actually go on their year abroad again. And, all of them did say that they would, despite any negatives that they experienced, their lasting impression of the experience that they had was that it was absolutely something that they would do again, and that it was extremely beneficial for them and for their self-growth.

And, in terms of widening their friendship groups and their international community, it was an invaluable experience for them. So, yeah, that's something that I'd like to emphasise for everyone listening.

Penny: Yeah, I think that's really important. I think at the start of this project, I think it was about both, you know, kind of celebrating, overcoming fear on the one hand, because kind of fear of the unknown, whilst also kind of, you know, maintaining an eye on how to navigate some of the complexities that might arise.

But, essentially, it was about celebrating the positive in addition to addressing mostly what the University wasn't doing. So, that is brilliant. And, if a student has any queries or questions that they'd like to raise, either before they go on their year abroad or during their placement, is there anyone at the University that that they can get in touch with?

Keji: Yes, they can get in touch with yourself, Penny Miles, and also Britt Sawyerr, who I mentioned earlier on in the conversation.

Penny: Yeah, so Britt's a dignity and liaison support officer, if you'd like to try and find her on the website, but she's quite easy to find. Is there anything else before we go? Is there anything else that you'd like to add, or you feel you didn't have time to cover in enough depth?

Keji: Yeah, I just wanted to emphasise that for the research study, I didn't want to just focus on the negative, as that wasn't really the purpose of the study. The main purpose was to bring visibility and awareness to the experiences that were being erased and ignored as a result of the default assumption that all students would have the white experience.

I feel that the hegemony of whiteness is quite pervasive in the entire preparation process, and this research was a response and a challenge to that.

Penny: Oh, that's brilliant. Thank you so much. Yeah, I mean, that was my position and I was part of that kind of, you know, whiteness and not addressing the kind of broader spectrum of experiences and, when I came to look at the research, there wasn't a lot of research on this and mostly focussed on students and from the US rather than kind of students from the UK.

And, so, a huge thanks for doing this research, for interviewing your peers around their experiences, because without that we wouldn't have had the project.